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Quick question

November 18, 2014

With discussion of “patriot spaces,” what kind of venue would you look at for such a thing?  Would you want a more rural setting?  How important would a range be to have?  The focus would be more on the back end of the spear, so consider that we have access to plenty of training in arms and maneuver elsewhere, so no sense in reinventing the wheel, unless necessary.

potential missions:

fabrication equipping and training.

gardening/farming education and support.

communications hub, possibly with HAM and other radio repeaters, maybe even a low power AM or FM station, servers linked with other spaces to help provide secure internet and data storage.

belt fed potato guns.

We’ve all heard of kickstarter.  How many people would get on something like that and donate to help set up a “patriot space” in their area?  How many areas would find it reasonable, with a good $20,000 or more probably needed to make a start(buying land/building or long term lease, equipment, etc.), and monthly dues to maintain it?


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  1. Grenadier1 permalink

    My take is that you want it as low key as possible. For example I live in North East Georgia. I would be looking for something like this to be further North of me in the mountains, Say Clayton or Blairsville Georgia. Maybe Cleveland Ga. Murphy North Carolina, or somewhere in Tennessee. All along the Appalachan redoubt. Low key space that has access to power and water. Space for genny sets if the power goes out and water tanks if need be. Somewhere as self sufficent as possible. I would shy away from setting up antennas but Internet is a must. You dont want anything radiating that might attract unwanted attention. Now depending on what you are making this may have to be altered but a range I think has to be out. Again too much noise and to much safety needs. Testing can be done more remotely if need be.

  2. lineman permalink

    I would volunteer to set one up in my area…I have the land picked out already and have it all mapped where to put buildings, cabins, barns, greenhouses, 500 yard shooting range, and an area for tactical training…Just need some help on the funds part…

  3. I would go with rural area,where you can drill your own water well,run septic system to keep property taxes down.
    Preferably with a stream on the land-it’s not all that difficult to generate power as long as there’s enough water flow.
    Using less power that you have to pay the power co. for is always better,plus if power goes out,so what? You are generating your own-to a point. generating enough power to run machinery would require a heck of a rate of water flow-but there are ways to increase the flow.

    • lineman permalink

      Good point this piece has that along with two spring fed ponds…The creek has about 200ft of drop…

      • 200ft is a decent amount of drop. The force can always be increased by running the water through a series of pipes with each one being smaller-then the velocity is increased considerably at the outflow.
        That and/or use a water wheel,then it’s just a matter of figuring out gear sizes/ratios.
        Water wheels were used for hundreds of years to power mills to grind grains,or to power sawmills and other machinery-no reason the same kind of system can’t be used today.
        I had a plan for small scale power generation that used a series of ponds combined with a few small windmills to pump water back to the upper pond. That was just for providing light,refrigeration,freezers- and enough to run TV,radio,coffee maker,and chargers for cordless tools, phones,and walkie-talkie type radios,. I’ll see if I can find it.
        Shouldn’t be all that hard to scale it up to make more power.

        Without your own power source,all it would take is the power to be shut off,or go out for whatever reason to shut the shop down.
        By generating your own power-and having a water source on the property-you are self-sufficient.

      • lineman permalink

        Yea having water at your disposal where you don’t have to use energy to get it will make your place more on its way to being self sufficient…To bad we don’t live closer;)

    • the fukkn A-team permalink

      i live on a fast moving river. What kind of generator set-up could i use to make power? Any help on that?

      • B Metz permalink

        Diesel works nice. You really need a rock solid power supply for a machine shop. 25kva would be the bare minimum. Little gas generators won’t cut it unless you are using the tiny 110v power tools and a inverter welder.

        3Phase or a solid state 3Phase converter would be a plus.

        After one spends the huge sum to build a water powered generator of that size you pretty much spent the equivalent of a generator and fuel for a year or 2 running it full time 60 hours a week.

      • Problem is when diesel is in short supply. If you have a good location with the right water flow, no reason not to go for it. Same with wind–you get less run time with wind, but it’s better than an empty gas tank with no refill in sight. It’s not just the now you’re worried about, but the later.

      • Gamegetter sounds like the one to talk to. There are methods that trade speed for volume, properly done either one will provide energy.

  4. nick permalink

    Should be dual use. Need a “cover story” for it, ie. “It’s a makerspace/ham club/votech program.” ABSOLUTELY should NOT be identifiable as a patriot space (whatever that turns out to be.)

    • B-Dog permalink

      I am with you. I suggest either utilizing an existing space/business as a front, or create one. There are plenty of rural businesses that could house a patriot space in conjunction with existing business.

      As suggested, mobile is also an option, so long as it looks likes Gerald’s Landscaping, Jose’s Roofing and Construction, Smith Brothers Plumbing, Alfred’s Mobile Machining and Welding Service, Coastal Rigging, or something similar, etc., but not an RV.

  5. LFMayor permalink

    Rural, all the way. It just opens up so many options for you that a suburban or urban locale prevents. Sustainable preps, like timber, livestock, many options for garden and a handpump well and a lot less B.S. as far as building codes or covenenants (for outbuildings) The biggest thing though for traininig would be a firearms range and an area for PT. Even a 25 yard gun range can be used for sighting optics, not to mention basic classes for all personnel . The “car tire lifesaver roll” method could be used to dampen report if necessary if that’s a concern, or if positioned within an outbuilding. It’s a lot easier for me to go to my buddies and ruck around all dressed up on his rural property. We can do grappling, play with rubber knives, do low crawl or sprints and shoots or use a loop hole board and there’s no one there to raise eyebrows about it.
    The PT aspect has the same convienience, it’s a lot easier to put 4 guys in the backyard instead of trying to cram into a basement or family room and you can shuffle run with car tires or flip tractor tires around with no observation or joining “cross fit” so you blend in better.

  6. lost patrol permalink

    The first comment of Grenadier1 is correct. Maintain low profile. No name for the group. Don’t give anyone something to hang on you. This very thing is already happening in the American Redoubt (Idaho, Montana and Wyoming) and in the Appalachian Redoubt. If you can not afford to move to one of those areas, pick your AO where you are already aware. Culper in his latest intelligence briefs has referenced knowing who is around you, the politics, the leaders etc. If they are opposite you and yours, it spells trouble and you want to relocate. You will not survive surrounded by trolls and ogres. For sure; get out of the cities, get out of the cities and get away from the lines of drift. You can operate small industries in the country as easily as in the city. Cottage industries and farming, ranching. Alternative energy, solar, wind and water if it is available. Think pre 1920 as much as possible. At the very least reduce your dependence on the man. Not only are you more secure, you are not paying into the globalist crime syndicates. Communications is a necessity. Look to Signal Corp or Sparks31 or WRSA for information on that important subject. The final note is that HUD has a project which is supposedly being sanctioned by el president Osama. All zip codes are having their demographics analyzed. If too white, well they have the authority to make changes. Sooo that alone tells me to stay clear of industrial areas, larger cities or towns. Maybe they will look at towns with populations of 300 in NE Montana, but that will take place long after things get sporty. Good luck regardless of your decision. From the American Redoubt I remain.

    • lineman permalink

      If your ever in my AO let me know and I will buy you dinner;)

  7. Prepping Preacher permalink

    a Patriot hackerspace concept – i like it… i’d think rural, off grid if possible,,, i have had this kind of idea rolling around in my mind for some time… i’m trying to develop multiple skills to fit the overall idea… New England is a tough AO for building tribe… i have the land and have a plan for some dedicated uses like farming, livestock and other useful arts…

  8. the fukkn A-team permalink

    I’m fortunate enough to own real estate very near an Amish/Mennonite Community and as such they already have everything from farm to machine shop up and running at full speed. Take notes from them, they are experts at it. As far as the trolls and ogres- they’re everywhere already, even in the redoubts. They make up a large percentage of any population. The big die-off will be a welcome event. Having a well provisioned boat would be a big plus if you can afford it -just in case.

    • You are right about the Amish-they have been making everything they need for generations.
      It’s hard to find Amish that are willing to share much with the “English” in many areas though.
      They make their own plows,harrows,discs,etc. their own harnesses and the rest of the tack for the draft horses and mules,grow all their own veggies,raise chickens,hogs,cattle. The only things I see them buying are canning supplies,salt,sugar and flour.

      Paying attention to the Amish and how they do things can teach the rest of us a lot.

    • the fukkn A-team permalink

      Yup, and the Mennonites have the industrial/mechanical side of things covered. I seemed to have hit it off with them pretty good. Been here 10 years now (my family owned a TV/Radio Broadcasting Co. here in N.MI.-recently sold) so maybe that’s why they took to me, that and I can quote scripture well enough. They let me in their circle right from the get go. Great folks.

  9. azerjs permalink

    I think a better alternative would be a mobile shop in a still road worthy 48 foot reefer trailer, or insulated cargo container witth skids ont he bottom for easy roll off trailer use.

    Borrow a page from Daniel Suarez books about decentralised war figthing and fabrication.

    Set up as modules that can be moved and exchanged to be placed where needed. It would be a lot cheaper than setting up a dedicated building in the long run.

  10. Do not integrate ‘supply – distribution – use’ in a single location. It makes for a single point of failure on all three fronts at once. Civil war history indicates that is a bad idea.

    Being rural has its virtues, but hiding in plain sight in an urban environment is entirely possible. Most urban locations have trailer storage — 40′ container or RV being possible. Fact a older gutted RV would be a great cover in a RV storage lot. Drive it to a use location, hook up power, produce what is needed then take it to another location. Running a genset in that context would not trigger much suspicion.

  11. I am not convinced you can hide. The amount of resources and training needed to stay off radar is monumental. There is just too much data for hunters to use to find out what is going on if they are looking. Too many places that you can fail in OPSEC. Plus the fact you are trying to stay hidden will make people more interested in you and what you are doing.

    Opening a business that makes a product that uses the tools, while offering training and services might be a better concept. Train people how to mill and weld. I would think keeping it reasonably urban with the plan b of rural when things become untenable. Sort of like Church. The closer you live to your Church the more often you take part in the activities.

    I used to make armor and sword fight. One of the guys had a house where he had a barn set up with a smithy. We had a group of like 5-10 or so people who would go over, have beer and pizza, and bang on metal until late at night. Lots of fun and it wasn’t too far outside the city. Learned a lot, made some cool stuff. Enjoyed the crap out the company. More importantly the group went from 3 to 10 because people could bring their friends along and have a good time without a terrible amount of time commitment.

    Depends on what you want to do. My needs at this point are growth. I would rather have 10 people who were interested and on board than 3.

    I can see keeping it reasonably low profile, but it would be more worth your time to enlist those around the site to maintain a stake in its continued growth. Perhaps look for a location that regularly staffs political figures that would be more likely to guard you from a predatory federal government.

  12. agbarley permalink

    I got a “makey-breaky” heart! My TIME is mine to donate – (due to catastrophic medical bills, I got no free cash). You need sealed (NC PE registration) drawings? I can generate a full drawing package (drawings and specifications in Adobe PDF format) emailed to you. You must pay the local permitting & printing costs for any installation in NC.

    Package includes calculate / size / select / specify: pumps / piping / HVAC equipment / ductwork / exhaust fans / hydro-power (no civil / dams, only Pelton wheel high head / low flow systems) plus general plumbing / air compressors & piping, simple electrical power.

    BY THE WAY – I am working on (2) how-to articles to get this ball rolling. New ideas are solicited – just SING OUT! I will answer ANY mechanical question (provided it falls within the current laws of physics) or reply “I DON’T KNOW”.

    Article #1 (pure “BREAKY”) – vulnerabilities of computer data centers.

    Article #2 – the “MAKEY” on a small-scale man- (or pick-up truck) portable compressed air cannon for launching “breaky” type loads.

    If ANYONE has a “Special Project” that needs engineering calculations, let me know. Reply to Fabbersmith, and he will forward requests. I will address the technical aspects of your question (as long as it’s possible within the laws of physics as currently defined). No PE seal provided.


    • Air cannon I think are under appreciated. The disadvantages are the support needed, and the bulk compared to things like rifle grenades. Still, they can be quite useful. You see I put a belt fed on the list?

  13. Chief Davenport permalink

    3 critical books by David Macaulay: “City”, “Castle” & “Mill”. Historical info from the experts in state of the art production/protection & “off the grid”

  14. Here’s a link dump of resources for ya. Will add what I don’t have yet on my blogs as well.
    big collection of docs on how to make things in grid down/3rd world countries Improvised welding set-up with batteries (cheap!) All kinds of mechanical engineering DIY stuff including metallurgy, casting, motors, gears, pulleys etc. – and a little about home brewing. kind of greenie-weenie but scroll about halfway down and they have deconstructed and made open source designs for a slab-metal cutting machine and some other metalworking things. They are all into open source designing heavy machinery. this org has designed a do-it-all machine tool for the 3rd world.

    • B Metz permalink

      “I would forget about open source ecology designs. I spent 2 years working with them and was a waste of time. Their designs are never quite finished, and documentation to build what they have done is lacking.

      Great idea, poor execution.”

  15. anon e mouse permalink

    Consider steam engines for off-grid power generation. If it burns (wood, coal, ethanol, agricultural waste, federal reserve notes, bodies) it can make steam, and steam turning a turbine is a time honored way of making power. Even a triple expansion steam engine can provide reliable power.

    • Aside from generating power,steam can be used to drive machinery via belts/chains/gears/driveshafts/PTO,etc.

      I think a means of generating enough power to operate machinery is a critical part of setting up a shop for use as a patriot space.

      As is having a product to manufacture that uses the machinery and can be sold to help support the operation.

      Generating your own power in an urban setting would attract far to much unwanted attention.

      A rural setting would be better because you could have a working farm included on the property,and could be self-sufficient.

      I don’t think a range/training area is a critical need-there’s plenty of guys who offer training,and there’s plenty of ranges around.
      Unless you made the range open to the public,then you could generate income from the range for now.
      The problem would be when things get sporty- .gov inc. is going to be looking for guys training,and they would focus on ranges-and who is going to the ranges.
      Too much attention from TPTB.

      Having a shop set up to manufacture a product that uses the machines,and doesn’t require a bunch of state and fed permits and licenses would be the way to go,as you could always switch the product(s) you are making.

  16. Grenadier1 permalink

    Right now guys there are a lot of good ideas floating out there and lots of folks have their opinion about how this should work….good, get to work. All of the ideas are worth testing out and following down. You think a 40 foot container is the way to go. Good idea, get one and figure out where you are going to put it. Then come back and ask for help when you hit a roadblock. Everyone can chip in with potential solutions. I dont mean to sound like an ass here BTW I am serious. Having ideas is great I got tons of them its executing them that gets results. We need 4 locations in the East and 4 in the West that can begin operations within the next two months. The reason I suggested a project on WRSA is that it will help focus the efforts in what to set up and do. These hackerspaces tend to set themselves up to do all kinds of things first and thats wasting resources on tools and capabilities that no one is using. If you have a project, that defines some requirements and the various spaces can build what is needed to work that project. Then you move on to another project that mushrooms off the first. I suggested the PRC squad radio because it has several different resource requirements. From Electrical design and PCB production to machining the housings and assembling the end radios with environmental seals. Its a multi-dicipline product. From there you move to a manpack HF radio that expands on these capabilities.
    So its one thing to get the space up and ready but you got to have some defined projects that will be worked on that helps drive and define the space. Also this is a phased approach. Work Electronic projects now while we still have access to international sources of components and production. There are sources of good low production run PCB boards and bulk components that may not be around when things get froggy. Work those types of projects now then move the the more….exotic ones.

  17. The Walkin' Dude permalink

    Not to be cocky, but I am a dang good machinist (about 10 years in, manual, CNC, grinding, heat treating, on and on). Where the hell are the Freefor shops? I would much rather make things for fellow patriots than factories and military. Alas, I have found virtually none, aside from the few that are tight knit tribe, and don’t want or need new blood in their community.

    • lineman permalink

      So make a list of what a good shop should have in it?

  18. StevenKY permalink

    Check out “Wood Gasifiers” for running vehicles using wood chips to generate the fumes that will power an engine. is about a company that manufactures a pallet mounted gasifier that is coupled with a generator. Scrap wood goes in and electricity comes out.

    • h h permalink

      the open source version of the GEK gasifier plans is incomplete. I tried making from their plans and found a lot of missing things.

      There is a USGOV design out on the web that is a good starting point. I would add in a cyclonic filter and a way to filter the gas thru water like a water pipe to remove the tar to make it work better.

  19. h h permalink

    here is what a 3d printing shop looks like…

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